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Thread: What's The Deal?

  1. #1
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    What's The Deal?

    Just happened to notice after only 300 miles, I have a trace of an oil leak on the chain case. What's the deal?

    Mike


  2. #2
    Senior Member bicyclenut's Avatar
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    First Id go around and re-torque all the bolts for the chain case cover to the proper torque. I had some similar seepage at 4000 miles and dealer just said they did this to fix it, was normally part of regular service check.

    May need to replace gasket but as I recall yours is new so should be under warranty.



    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    2014 C650GT Quartz Blue Metallic

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    Thanks - I seemed to remember I seen this before on a thread - I'll check the bolts!

    Regards

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    Senior Member Skutorr's Avatar
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    Yep, Lonchin Quality Control...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skutorr View Post
    Yep, Lonchin Quality Control...
    Lonchin Quality Control?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Skutorr's Avatar
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    The BMW-designed engine, drive train, frame, etc. are built and assembled in the Lonchin factory in China under KYMCO's supervision. The entire bike's major sub-assemblies and components are ASSEMBLED in Germany so are "German-Made". There had been problems with leaking gaskets, defective seals and porous block castings where the engines were irreparable and had to be replaced completely under warranty, as oil was leaking out through the solid SIDE of the engine crankcase.

    Most of these faults were in the first few years' production, but were frustrating to say the least and sales in hyper-competitive Europe lagged well behind all the competition.

    Quality control was initially so bad that after the big roll-out to the press in November of 2012, BMW delayed deliveries until February 2013 to address all the most glaring shortcomings. The current crop of scooters from 2017-on are much better, but that's after years of customer complaints and multiple recalls/warranty issues. When the new Sport came out in 2017, with much better looks, fit & finish, suspension settings, clutch and variator calibration and lower gearing, the press and consumers said "WOW, why didn't you do this to begin with, this is a great bike now!".

    Even when they were forced to repair things, like the defective cam chain tensioners that had poorly-tempered springs which snapped, the responsible subcontractors still cheaped-out, and instead of redesigning the tensioner completely with a non-return expansion ratcheting mechanism that would keep it taking-up slack permanently after expanding incrementally, they just put in a "better" spring. It cost Jaime his ENGINE. That's what I mean by Lonchin QC.

    Everyone cuts corners on their products to maximize profit, but hopefully not at the expense of reliability. Or, a product has unforeseen design flaws/weak spots that show up later. When they started racing the crap out of Tmaxes, they had bearing seizures at the front main bearing...not enough oil flow for racing conditions. So, Yamaha increased the size of the oil feed journals to that bearing and through the crank and commensurately increased the capacity of the oil pump.

    Honda, after they introduced the NC700 line of bikes, due to complaints of too much "perceived vibration", COMPLETELY redesigned the engine, adding a SECOND balancing shaft, and while they were at it stroked the motor from 700cc to 745cc, adding more torque, horsepower and increased mileage. Not from any failures or warranty issues, but complaints. (But, as we are ignorant here, kept offering us ONLY the 700 motor until this year...) THAT is a responsive manufacturer who is playing the Long Game and not just looking to recoup their development $$$ ASAP. Honda reliability in cars, bikes, lawn mowers, generators, you name it, is the Industry Standard. Others, not so much...

    KYMCO came out with their AK550 after doing ALL the homework. They looked at the crappy stock exhausts that EVERYONE had (until HONDA and BMW upgraded in 2017 and YAMAHA did so in 2018) and made over ONE THOUSAND prototype modifications until the exhaust system SOUND was PERFECT. That's OCD!!!

    Now, they review all three bikes together, the Tmax 530, BMW C650 Sport and KYMCO AK 550, and the results in the reviews in Spain, Italy, France and elsewhere are usually:

    1.) highway / touring use...BMW gets the nod
    2.) city riding and blasting through the twisties...nothing touches the KYMCO
    3.) overall usage...the Yamaha still sets the standard

    That's after 17 YEARS of Tmaxes, 6 YEARS of BMWs....and KYMCO out of the BOX? KYMCO learned from BMW's missteps, obviously. As they say, you only get ONE chance to make a First Impression. (Oh, and the KYMCO is more than $2,000 LESS than the others...)

    Where does that leave us? The Tmax was brought back from 2015-2016, and they marketed it in the SAME idiot fashion as 2009-2011. Result? There are STILL unsold Asphalt-Colored 2015 Tmaxes at Yamaha dealers, at $2,000+ discounts.

    KYMCO just started importing the Xciting 400i ABS to the US which had KILLED all the competition in Europe for 5 years. Its 350cc replacement is showing up now over there, along with the flagship AK 550. As they have a very SKETCHY distribution network in the US, I doubt if we will see the AK 550. And, they don't NEED our sales, thank you very much.

    So, BMW WINS by DEFAULT!!! You want a Twin Sport Maxi Scooter? The Burgman 650 and (discontinued) Silverwing 600 aren't it, the Tmax 530 is gone AGAIN and KYMCO isn't playing.

    (Oh, wait, HONDA has the NC750 DCT. H-m-m-m, interesting....)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skutorr View Post
    The BMW-designed engine, drive train, frame, etc. are built and assembled in the Lonchin factory in China under KYMCO's supervision. The entire bike's major sub-assemblies and components are ASSEMBLED in Germany so are "German-Made". There had been problems with leaking gaskets, defective seals and porous block castings where the engines were irreparable and had to be replaced completely under warranty, as oil was leaking out through the solid SIDE of the engine crankcase.

    Most of these faults were in the first few years' production, but were frustrating to say the least and sales in hyper-competitive Europe lagged well behind all the competition.

    Quality control was initially so bad that after the big roll-out to the press in November of 2012, BMW delayed deliveries until February 2013 to address all the most glaring shortcomings. The current crop of scooters from 2017-on are much better, but that's after years of customer complaints and multiple recalls/warranty issues. When the new Sport came out in 2017, with much better looks, fit & finish, suspension settings, clutch and variator calibration and lower gearing, the press and consumers said "WOW, why didn't you do this to begin with, this is a great bike now!".

    Even when they were forced to repair things, like the defective cam chain tensioners that had poorly-tempered springs which snapped, the responsible subcontractors still cheaped-out, and instead of redesigning the tensioner completely with a non-return expansion ratcheting mechanism that would keep it taking-up slack permanently after expanding incrementally, they just put in a "better" spring. It cost Jaime his ENGINE. That's what I mean by Lonchin QC.

    Everyone cuts corners on their products to maximize profit, but hopefully not at the expense of reliability. Or, a product has unforeseen design flaws/weak spots that show up later. When they started racing the crap out of Tmaxes, they had bearing seizures at the front main bearing...not enough oil flow for racing conditions. So, Yamaha increased the size of the oil feed journals to that bearing and through the crank and commensurately increased the capacity of the oil pump.

    Honda, after they introduced the NC700 line of bikes, due to complaints of too much "perceived vibration", COMPLETELY redesigned the engine, adding a SECOND balancing shaft, and while they were at it stroked the motor from 700cc to 745cc, adding more torque, horsepower and increased mileage. Not from any failures or warranty issues, but complaints. (But, as we are ignorant here, kept offering us ONLY the 700 motor until this year...) THAT is a responsive manufacturer who is playing the Long Game and not just looking to recoup their development $$$ ASAP. Honda reliability in cars, bikes, lawn mowers, generators, you name it, is the Industry Standard. Others, not so much...

    KYMCO came out with their AK550 after doing ALL the homework. They looked at the crappy stock exhausts that EVERYONE had (until HONDA and BMW upgraded in 2017 and YAMAHA did so in 2018) and made over ONE THOUSAND prototype modifications until the exhaust system SOUND was PERFECT. That's OCD!!!

    Now, they review all three bikes together, the Tmax 530, BMW C650 Sport and KYMCO AK 550, and the results in the reviews in Spain, Italy, France and elsewhere are usually:

    1.) highway / touring use...BMW gets the nod
    2.) city riding and blasting through the twisties...nothing touches the KYMCO
    3.) overall usage...the Yamaha still sets the standard

    That's after 17 YEARS of Tmaxes, 6 YEARS of BMWs....and KYMCO out of the BOX? KYMCO learned from BMW's missteps, obviously. As they say, you only get ONE chance to make a First Impression. (Oh, and the KYMCO is more than $2,000 LESS than the others...)

    Where does that leave us? The Tmax was brought back from 2015-2016, and they marketed it in the SAME idiot fashion as 2009-2011. Result? There are STILL unsold Asphalt-Colored 2015 Tmaxes at Yamaha dealers, at $2,000+ discounts.

    KYMCO just started importing the Xciting 400i ABS to the US which had KILLED all the competition in Europe for 5 years. Its 350cc replacement is showing up now over there, along with the flagship AK 550. As they have a very SKETCHY distribution network in the US, I doubt if we will see the AK 550. And, they don't NEED our sales, thank you very much.

    So, BMW WINS by DEFAULT!!! You want a Twin Sport Maxi Scooter? The Burgman 650 and (discontinued) Silverwing 600 aren't it, the Tmax 530 is gone AGAIN and KYMCO isn't playing.

    (Oh, wait, HONDA has the NC750 DCT. H-m-m-m, interesting....)
    Skutorr Thanks for the reply and the detailed info on the BMW, I’ve only owned one BMW which was a R9T and found it “quality wise” pretty good, but my 650 is falling short of high quality. When I heard BMW sub’ed out the engine, after I bought mine, I was not happy. Manufacturers generally do this to save money so you know right up front there will be some short comings.

    I’ve owned a NC700 DCT and and I still own a Honda NM4 DCT. Honda has this automatic thing totally in control, there is nothing like their transmission anywhere. As you know, it shifts “mechanically” by itself or manually. There is even two different Sport modes which really spread the gears apart. We could only hope the X-ADV gets released in the US.

    What bothers me most on my 650 Sport is the overall noise level of the engine. I have two different sources; The engine and the CVT. I come to realize most of the general engine noise I hear has to be the cam chain and further worsened by the gear reduction and drive chain. I also feel it has something to do with the design of hard mounting the engine to the frame. I’ve went through great efforts to lower the noise, while its OK now, its still has twice the engine noise of my Xmax 300 or MP3 500. here’s a link to my insulation method.

    ( https://www.bmw-scooters.com/forum/t...80%9D-Mike-Mas)


    My other noise is a CVT whining noise. My Sport is very loud. It only happens when slowing - as the bike gets around 38 mph it starts, at 30 mph its loudest and it goes away around 20 mph. if you look at its gear ratio chart, my noise is exactly where the low ratio is at. here's a video where you can hear it, howver its like 3 times louder in real life.

    http://www.rotory.com/bike/650/whine.mov

    I put up a post and a few guys jumped in and said they had it too, however while all CVT’s whine, I feel there is something wrong with mine. Just to confirm mine is worse than others, I last week rode two GT’s and I could barely hear either one of them, so I know something not right with mine.

    Anyhow, I’m not overly happy at this point, I had a bulb blow up in my headlight and fog the assembly, leaking chain case, excessive engine noise and a whining CVT, not at all what I expected from BMW.

    Regards - Mike

  8. #8
    Senior Member TwoPort's Avatar
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    I had the same issue with my 2013. Funny, right? - That is the chain box leak.
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  9. #9
    Senior Member SteveADV's Avatar
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    Hey Skutorr,

    Didn't your brother by a NC700 DCT? If so, how does he like it?

    Steve

  10. #10
    Senior Member Skutorr's Avatar
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    He recently bought an NC700 DCT out of Arizona and LOVES it. It used to be his favorite all-rounder, as he also has the new Kawi 400 Ninja and a Victory Octane, and a NEW BIKE.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    His 2018 Honda NC750 DCT, one of only 4 that were available in the state of California. It's a quantum leap even BETTER than the NC700 DCT.

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