First ride with a turtle on the dashboard (below freezing)

[triangletom]

TL;DR: Don't worry about the turtle icon when it's below freezing. It'll go away when it warms up.

I woke up this morning to a very cold-looking CE-04:



It was 27'F (-3'C). I turned on the bike and saw my first turtle icon, even at 100% charge. I was a little bit worried that it was due to some electrical fault, but after riding it, I think it was just due to the cold weather.

I did go inside to look at the manual to see what it had to say about the turtle, and the only thing I found when it wasn't in relation to another error message was "Power Severely Limited"



I only had a short way to go today on city surface streets (3mi), but I didn't notice the power limit. I was admittedly holding back the throttle in case the roads were slippery. The only thing I noticed was a substantial increase in energy consumption: I used 15% battery over 5 miles of riding with an average road speed of 25mph, which works out to about 30 miles of range. I've been tracking my energy consumption since getting the bike, and this definitely tracks:


What I don't know yet is how much of that increased energy consumption is due to running a heated jacket, heated grips, and heated seats and how much of it is due to how battery chemistry behaves at slower speeds.

Has anyone else encountered this?

 

[Laurie]

I’m looking at getting a CE04 soon. I have had a Zero and I ride in the winter. Its battery was I think, 14.7 kWh. Anyways, yes, cold weather through my riding experience on the Zero brought me lots of range anxiety. My commute is 54 miles and in colder weather, I would get home on some days with about 10-20% range left while in better weather usually 40%. This is mostly highway also. Also if it’s windy. The timing of charging and riding can help with better range.
I’m curious about the heated jacket. I understand that this has a 12 volt battery also. The Zero does too. My assumption is that your jacket runs off the 12 volt? If that is true, shouldn’t affect the range. I currently ride with a heated jacket and pants ( 27 degrees, as long as it isn’t too windy and no snow or ice, isn’t too bad for me) and I rode with this on my Zero and it didn’t seem to effect the range so that is where I thought of the 12 volt. How do you hook up your jacket?
Sometimes, I am dense, so I didn’t understand the turtle thing. Like I said, I don’t have one yet. I am glad I’m not the only one out there riding in the winter and cold.

 

[Laurie]

TL;DR: Don't worry about the turtle icon when it's below freezing. It'll go away when it warms up.

I woke up this morning to a very cold-looking CE-04:

View attachment 3597

It was 27'F (-3'C). I turned on the bike and saw my first turtle icon, even at 100% charge. I was a little bit worried that it was due to some electrical fault, but after riding it, I think it was just due to the cold weather.

I did go inside to look at the manual to see what it had to say about the turtle, and the only thing I found when it wasn't in relation to another error message was "Power Severely Limited"

View attachment 3598

I only had a short way to go today on city surface streets (3mi), but I didn't notice the power limit. I was admittedly holding back the throttle in case the roads were slippery. The only thing I noticed was a substantial increase in energy consumption: I used 15% battery over 5 miles of riding with an average road speed of 25mph, which works out to about 30 miles of range. I've been tracking my energy consumption since getting the bike, and this definitely tracks:

View attachment 3599
What I don't know yet is how much of that increased energy consumption is due to running a heated jacket, heated grips, and heated seats and how much of it is due to how battery chemistry behaves at slower speeds.

Has anyone else encountered this?

Also, thanks for the chart. Very helpful.

 

[Laurie]

TL;DR: Don't worry about the turtle icon when it's below freezing. It'll go away when it warms up.

I woke up this morning to a very cold-looking CE-04:

View attachment 3597

It was 27'F (-3'C). I turned on the bike and saw my first turtle icon, even at 100% charge. I was a little bit worried that it was due to some electrical fault, but after riding it, I think it was just due to the cold weather.

I did go inside to look at the manual to see what it had to say about the turtle, and the only thing I found when it wasn't in relation to another error message was "Power Severely Limited"

View attachment 3598

I only had a short way to go today on city surface streets (3mi), but I didn't notice the power limit. I was admittedly holding back the throttle in case the roads were slippery. The only thing I noticed was a substantial increase in energy consumption: I used 15% battery over 5 miles of riding with an average road speed of 25mph, which works out to about 30 miles of range. I've been tracking my energy consumption since getting the bike, and this definitely tracks:

View attachment 3599
What I don't know yet is how much of that increased energy consumption is due to running a heated jacket, heated grips, and heated seats and how much of it is due to how battery chemistry behaves at slower speeds.

Has anyone else encountered this?

I found the turtle.

 

[Ceesie76]

Somehow I would think that running heat gear off of the 12 volt battery would affect the range, as that power has to be coming from the same main engine/battery?

 

[Laurie]

Somehow I would think that running heat gear off of the 12 volt battery would affect the range, as that power has to be coming from the same main engine/battery?

So someone correct me if I’m wrong about this, but from what I have read, this is a separate 12 volt battery. My assumptions are that this is what runs accessories and whatnot. The 148 volt runs the drivetrain. I bet there may be an engineer that can explain this better. You know the old saying, ”A little bit of knowledge is dangerous.”

 

[SeaE04]

First, thank you OP for starting this thread. I really appreciate real-world (and envelope pushing) experience threads. I was riding up until about the freezing point on the Atlantic coast here with no troubles. I wear (independently, not connected to bike) heated jackets underneath my riding / armored jacket and that plus the CE 04's heated grips and seat (on setting: 2) was plenty warm and very enjoyable down to close low 30s. I just ended up storing the bike now given ice and snow is coming and will be permanent where I am but I like to hear daily commuter / cold weather experiences so keep them coming.

I am no electrical engineer either but what we do know is that the 12v socket comes off the 12v battery, that the bike "recharges the 12v battery from the main battery while it's on" and that the bike checks the level of the 12v every 2 days when turned off and will turn on and charge it from the main battery if needed, which is why the manual says during cold weather storage to "be sure to check the power of the main battery every 1-2 weeks and top it off to 100% if needed".

Finally, I have a personal experience with the bike: I combined plugging it in to charge one night with using the feature where you hold one of the switches (I think it's the high beams) after you turn the bike off. Typically, that gives you just a few minutes of additional headlamp with the bike off so you can see your way to your front door, etc. Turns out if you do that in combination with being plugged into 110 to charge, it will not turn the head/rear lights off. I woke up the next morning, looked outside and noticed my headlamp/rear lights still on. Eek! Main battery was full, bike started and rode fine, but I got the TURTLE for the whole hour I rode it around, turning the bike off and on here and there to check if TURTLE went away - it didn't. Later, I topped the main off from 70% to 100% from 110 plug in and rode again and TURTLE was gone. I believe while I rode the first time, the bike was recharging the 12v from main (much like a gas engine would).

All of the above leads me to these hypotheses / assertions:

- If the bike is "off" (importantly, INLCLUDING while charging), if you have lights on or anthing plugged into 12v socket, it's coming off the 12v battery not the main battery which means - be careful, even though you're plugged into the wall, you could kill the 12v or at the very least invite TURTLE.
- If the bike is "on" it will detect if 12v is low and use the main to recharge it while the bike is ON (i.e. so I believe you should ride it around and enjoy the scenery while the main recharges the 12v to keep the bike on)
- If you do run the 12v low for any reason, expect TURTLE. Depending on which passage in the manual you read, TURTLE can mean anything from low 12v to some problem with the charging system so I wouldn't rush right to the dealer, especially if you know you did something to weaken the 12v.
- If you do run the 12v low, what was successful for me was to just ignore it, ride carefully anyway (I had no trouble hitting 55 mph and noticed no performance degradation, YMMV) for at least 30% of the battery to give the bike time to recharge the 12v from the main. If you do this, do what I did and after that decent amount of main time, recharge the main and hopefully TURTLE is gone and your bike is back to normal without a trip to the physician.
- Unfortunately, all of this means to me that 12v / lights should only ever be on of the bike itself is on. Think of the main as a gas engine and treat the 12v socket (and by extension, the USB-C port because the manual says that comes off the 12v) the way you would a dome light in an old car. Best not to leave anything plugged in if you're not riding.

 

[Laurie]

First, thank you OP for starting this thread. I really appreciate real-world (and envelope pushing) experience threads. I was riding up until about the freezing point on the Atlantic coast here with no troubles. I wear (independently, not connected to bike) heated jackets underneath my riding / armored jacket and that plus the CE 04's heated grips and seat (on setting: 2) was plenty warm and very enjoyable down to close low 30s. I just ended up storing the bike now given ice and snow is coming and will be permanent where I am but I like to hear daily commuter / cold weather experiences so keep them coming.

I am no electrical engineer either but what we do know is that the 12v socket comes off the 12v battery, that the bike "recharges the 12v battery from the main battery while it's on" and that the bike checks the level of the 12v every 2 days when turned off and will turn on and charge it from the main battery if needed, which is why the manual says during cold weather storage to "be sure to check the power of the main battery every 1-2 weeks and top it off to 100% if needed".

Finally, I have a personal experience with the bike: I combined plugging it in to charge one night with using the feature where you hold one of the switches (I think it's the high beams) after you turn the bike off. Typically, that gives you just a few minutes of additional headlamp with the bike off so you can see your way to your front door, etc. Turns out if you do that in combination with being plugged into 110 to charge, it will not turn the head/rear lights off. I woke up the next morning, looked outside and noticed my headlamp/rear lights still on. Eek! Main battery was full, bike started and rode fine, but I got the TURTLE for the whole hour I rode it around, turning the bike off and on here and there to check if TURTLE went away - it didn't. Later, I topped the main off from 70% to 100% from 110 plug in and rode again and TURTLE was gone. I believe while I rode the first time, the bike was recharging the 12v from main (much like a gas engine would).

All of the above leads me to these hypotheses / assertions:

- If the bike is "off" (importantly, INLCLUDING while charging), if you have lights on or anthing plugged into 12v socket, it's coming off the 12v battery not the main battery which means - be careful, even though you're plugged into the wall, you could kill the 12v or at the very least invite TURTLE.
- If the bike is "on" it will detect if 12v is low and use the main to recharge it while the bike is ON (i.e. so I believe you should ride it around and enjoy the scenery while the main recharges the 12v to keep the bike on)
- If you do run the 12v low for any reason, expect TURTLE. Depending on which passage in the manual you read, TURTLE can mean anything from low 12v to some problem with the charging system so I wouldn't rush right to the dealer, especially if you know you did something to weaken the 12v.
- If you do run the 12v low, what was successful for me was to just ignore it, ride carefully anyway (I had no trouble hitting 55 mph and noticed no performance degradation, YMMV) for at least 30% of the battery to give the bike time to recharge the 12v from the main. If you do this, do what I did and after that decent amount of main time, recharge the main and hopefully TURTLE is gone and your bike is back to normal without a trip to the physician.
- Unfortunately, all of this means to me that 12v / lights should only ever be on of the bike itself is on. Think of the main as a gas engine and treat the 12v socket (and by extension, the USB-C port because the manual says that comes off the 12v) the way you would a dome light in an old car. Best not to leave anything plugged in if you're not riding.

Thanks for the real life experience. I’m looking at getting one of these machines. I ride in the cold so I am looking at how much cold weather effects range. I may wait til Spring. There is a demo close to me (relatively) and I may make the trip to see how this rides on the highway. It’s a bit heavy but as I understand, this weight it lower (I had a Zero) and more centered.

 

[rongrimes]

I can't believe you'd spend that much on a scooter and not let it sleep with you in the bedroom!

 

[triangletom]

TL;DR: If it's near or below freezing and you see the Turtle icon on the dash, don't fret.

Now that I have several cold rides under my belt, it seems like the Turtle icon normally comes on when it's freezing. I suppose it's BMW's way of letting you know you won't get all the torque you want out of the vehicle until it warms up. I generally ride more conservatively with freezing temperatures, but I haven't actually noticed a limitation.

It is worth noting that freezing temperatures come with a dramatic reduction in range. Based on my usage, I'm seeing a 33% reduction of range from 70'F to 20'F. That is, If you normally get a range of 75 miles at 70'F, you can expect a range of 50 miles at 20'F.

 

[zandman]

I found the turtle and didn't like it.
1500 km on my CE04 (11kW version) since Octobre. Already had the turtle 4 times.

Typically when riding home from work in cold weather, with heated grips and seat on. During the day the scooter sleeps outside.
When the main battery hits around 30% I get turtle. This is on the highway, cruising at about 110 km/h. At this speed the scoot starts to slow down slowly. Not ideal, but managable even on the highway. Closing the "gas" handle and opening again makes the turtle dissapear for a short time.

The second time it hits even harder. I get turtle with a total loss of power for what seems a few seconds. This means I actually slow down (first time I was just passing a truck.....)
I typically go of the gass and slowly try to accallerate, to save my ass.

Today I got my first (ride-in) service at the dealer. No error codes were found.
They told me the turtle in cold weather is considered to be normal (?)
The total loss of power is not, they will contact BMW and keep me posted....
Not sure if they find a solution.

 

[zandman]

I had the official answer from BMW Belgium today: bad news!

Turtle mode kicks in as a protective measure because the battery drain is to high at that moment. The battery cools down to much and thus has higher consumption.

The total loss of power is due to the change in riding mode (reset to turtle takes time apparently).
BMW suggests to store the scoot inside to keep the battery warmer. (rather costly at my workplace in Brussels). Or to avoid highway speeds in winter
So basically I bought a expensive scooter, that's pretty useless to me in winter. I did tell them I was an all season rider when I bought it though.

So no real hope for a solution from their side.

The dealership never had this complaint before, recently they did have another client with exactly the same problem. On a facebook group some riders suggest they didn't have this behaviour before the last software update.

I'm regret having switched from Piaggio to BMW after more then 10 years of happy scooting (GTS 125, followed by MP3 500)

 

[subcyclist]

I had the official answer from BMW Belgium today: bad news!

Turtle mode kicks in as a protective measure because the battery drain is to high at that moment. The battery cools down to much and thus has higher consumption.

The total loss of power is due to the change in riding mode (reset to turtle takes time apparently).
BMW suggests to store the scoot inside to keep the battery warmer. (rather costly at my workplace in Brussels). Or to avoid highway speeds in winter
So basically I bought a expensive scooter, that's pretty useless to me in winter. I did tell them I was an all season rider when I bought it though.

So no real hope for a solution from their side.

The dealership never had this complaint before, recently they did have another client with exactly the same problem. On a facebook group some riders suggest they didn't have this behaviour before the last software update.

I'm regret having switched from Piaggio to BMW after more then 10 years of happy scooting (GTS 125, followed by MP3 500)

It is unfortunate to hear about your experience with cold weather performance loss. Because our scooters' battery and motor are taken from BMW's auto division, with the battery being a module used in the i4/iX, I checked a forum to find out if i4 owners experienced similar issues (https://www.i4talk.com/threads/cold-weather-performance.5769/). Many did say that their vehicles' range drops significantly when temperatures are low, much as we have seen in this topic. However, they did not mention a condition similar to our 'Turtle' mode. Because an i4 is a larger vehicle with space for more systems, thermal management of the battery pack in the i4 is likely far more robust than what we have in our CE04's. They have active heating/cooling, while I believe we only have passive cooling, correct? Active cooling is only provided to our motors, if I remember correctly. So, much like the Nissan Leaf (earlier generation), our battery does not have robust thermal management to help with cold temperatures.

I live in the same region of the US as TriangleTom, and I have experienced the turtle on a few occasions when temperatures were near or below freezing. My commute, though, is only about ~ 9km/5mi. I ride on local streets where speeds are low, and I have no difficulty in traffic like you have had on a highway, Zandman. I hope that you have warmer temperatures coming in the next month or two, so that you can enjoy more of the full power rides you want, and need.

 

[Fordychap]

I had turtles quite a few times in the dark early mornings when the temperatures dropped below 0°C here in January/February.
The CE-04 lives in the garage - but it’s a separate (cold) building not near the house. It’s unheated - but rarely goes below -3°C in any winter because of some running equipment in there.

My solution recently that’s worked well is some low wattage (24W) mains electric powered heating cable that I laid out on a piece of plywood and slid it under the bike - on the floor - in cold weather.
Yes it’s plugged into the electric supply - but at 24W isn’t going to break the bank.
Since then - even on very cold days, no turtles!
The range still drops - but I guess there’s just enough gentle warmth that’s rising from the heating cable that has kept the battery from being affected too badly.
Of course this only works if you have a parking area near an external power socket…