De Rated Power Question

[CE04_IRL]

Hi folks, I d appreciate some comments or feedback about an issue that has arisen with my CE04.

I am new to biking and decided to take undertake to ride a bike on turning fifty years of age, and all that. As I drive four wheeled electric vehicles, the CE04 was a contender, if somewhat slightly expensive.

Because I was a novice and because of the licencing laws in Ireland, I needed to get the bike in the derated form, to reduce the power for the A1 licence. It was my intention to undertake the training and tests to qualify for the licence appropriate to the nominal power of the bike (A2). This was to be the 'learning process'.

Now, this is probably to some degree my fault, but I do hold some blame towards the dealer here. During the ordering and purchasing process it was never once disclosed to me that the bike could not be returned to nominal power once derated. As I said, perhaps my fault for not asking, but the fact was never disclosed. To all you forum users – is this genuinely the case? Can the derated bike not be returned to nominal power?

According to the dealership, it can’t. Full stop. This is very disappointing. I’m not too pushed about the power output, per say, but my range is also reduced to approx 70 km (45ish miles). I have now also paid top dollar for a bike with lower power and reduced range. The dealership doesn’t want to know. BMW Ireland say it’s a issue between me and the dealership.

Any thoughts, comments or recommendations would be welcome.

 

[wspollack]

What a cautionary tale!

My initial reaction is: I'd be furious if it hadn't been explained to me, that the scoot couldn't be "UN-derated" after derating it.

Because you note that you ordered the bike -- as opposed to, say, buying it from the showroom floor -- I wonder if derating it meant that the factory built it with fewer battery cells, or something like that. If that were the case, i.e., the factory had to make changes regarding the way it was built, then maybe it truly can't be restored to full power after it has left the factory.

I did a little searching on this, and couldn't find an answer.


At https://www.bmwmotorrad.com.sg/en/m...#/section-highlights-for-new-urban-aesthetics :

If you hold an A1 category driving licence, you can simply experience the riding pleasure of the BMW CE 04 in the derated variant generating a nominal capacity of 11 kW (15 hp). Our authorised BMW Motorrad Retailers are happy to explain all the details.


At https://topauto.co.za/news/87700/bm...ter-south-african-pricing-and-specifications/ :

Driving the new BMW scooter is an electric motor on the rear axle generating a maximum output of 31kW and 62Nm, which can optionally be derated to 23kW, allowing the CE 04 to accelerate from 0-50km/h in as little as 2.6 seconds (2.7 seconds with optional derating) and reach an electronically-limited top speed of 120km/h.

The drivetrain also provides three riding modes comprising Eco, Rain, and Road, as well as an electronic reverser.

The 8.5kWh battery pack then supplies a maximum driving range of 130km, which is reduced to 6.2kWh and 100km with the optional derating.


So, no real help there, either.

Keep in mind that it seems to me that most users of this forum are from North America. No state in the USA has tiered licensing, and I don't believe Canada does, either (and I have no idea about Mexico). If knowledge is available on derating, my guess is that it will have to come from owners in the UK.

-- Is there any way you can return the bike to the dealership, i.e., have them buy it back? Are there any "fit for purpose" or warranty type of laws in Ireland that could cover returning a new motor vehicle within a certain period of time?

-- Alternatively, might the dealership give you a good trade-in price, as a gesture of good will, if you were to buy a different bike from them (perhaps a normal CE-04)?

-- Or, I guess you might try to sell the bike to some youngster in Ireland, who needs a derated bike. Perhaps a permanently derated CE-04 could be continuously resold to successive new riders.

-- Last, it's probably not worth the hassle or cost, but I suppose there's always the possibility of attempting to take the dealership to court, i.e., sue them. It certainly doesn't seem like this statement was true: "Our authorised BMW Motorrad Retailers are happy to explain all the details."

Good luck.

 

[CE04_IRL]

What a cautionary tale!

My initial reaction is: I'd be furious if it hadn't been explained to me, that the scoot couldn't be "UN-derated" after derating it.

Because you note that you ordered the bike -- as opposed to, say, buying it from the showroom floor -- I wonder if derating it meant that the factory built it with fewer battery cells, or something like that. If that were the case, i.e., the factory had to make changes regarding the way it was built, then maybe it truly can't be restored to full power after it has left the factory.

I did a little searching on this, and couldn't find an answer.


At https://www.bmwmotorrad.com.sg/en/m...#/section-highlights-for-new-urban-aesthetics :

If you hold an A1 category driving licence, you can simply experience the riding pleasure of the BMW CE 04 in the derated variant generating a nominal capacity of 11 kW (15 hp). Our authorised BMW Motorrad Retailers are happy to explain all the details.


At https://topauto.co.za/news/87700/bm...ter-south-african-pricing-and-specifications/ :

Driving the new BMW scooter is an electric motor on the rear axle generating a maximum output of 31kW and 62Nm, which can optionally be derated to 23kW, allowing the CE 04 to accelerate from 0-50km/h in as little as 2.6 seconds (2.7 seconds with optional derating) and reach an electronically-limited top speed of 120km/h.

The drivetrain also provides three riding modes comprising Eco, Rain, and Road, as well as an electronic reverser.

The 8.5kWh battery pack then supplies a maximum driving range of 130km, which is reduced to 6.2kWh and 100km with the optional derating.


So, no real help there, either.

Keep in mind that it seems to me that most users of this forum are from North America. No state in the USA has tiered licensing, and I don't believe Canada does, either (and I have no idea about Mexico). If knowledge is available on derating, my guess is that it will have to come from owners in the UK.

-- Is there any way you can return the bike to the dealership, i.e., have them buy it back? Are there any "fit for purpose" or warranty type of laws in Ireland that could cover returning a new motor vehicle within a certain period of time?

-- Alternatively, might the dealership give you a good trade-in price, as a gesture of good will, if you were to buy a different bike from them (perhaps a normal CE-04)?

-- Or, I guess you might try to sell the bike to some youngster in Ireland, who needs a derated bike. Perhaps a permanently derated CE-04 could be continuously resold to successive new riders.

-- Last, it's probably not worth the hassle or cost, but I suppose there's always the possibility of attempting to take the dealership to court, i.e., sue them. It certainly doesn't seem like this statement was true: "Our authorised BMW Motorrad Retailers are happy to explain all the details."

Good luck.

Thanks Bill,

Your reply is thoughtful and all points very much relevant.

I have more or less reached all these conclusions over the last few months up to and including seeking legal advice, which to be honest, wasn't very useful.

I'm well pizzed at BMW and the dealer and let them know as much, but they are not for turning. Their argument is, they delivered the bike as it was ordered. Tough.

There are only two BMW Motorrad dealers in the Republic and if pizz one of them off, then my options are diminished.

Anyway, thanks for your reply.
Brendan

 

[Harry Hippy]

I am guessing that’s how they reduced the power. Remove a few cells. How daft.

It would have been a lot more helpful if they had reduced the power in the software.
Also, you would have expected the range to have hopefully been increased to over 100 miles. Not reduced to 45 miles.

Maybe you could focus your complaint on the lack of range if you hadn’t been informed.

 

[Cyber-Nyne]

Going by the line:

The 8.5kWh battery pack then supplies a maximum driving range of 130km, which is reduced to 6.2kWh and 100km with the optional derating.

I suspect BMW uses software to reduce the battery capacity to 6.2kWh, as 'derating' seems to be related to a reduction in current and voltage to the electric motor to reduce the torque etc. on top of a reduction in the battery capacity. I am no electrical expert, though.

Note that some electric cars have had software updates which included a small increase in the battery capacity, or in other words, a reduction of the 'buffer' of the battery pack. I believe Audi did that in one of their e-tron EVs a few years ago, as did Jaguar for the iPace. The battery capacity in the CE 04 is 8.9kWh, with 8.5 and 6.2 being the useable amounts. The derated version may be carrying a 2.7kWh buffer that BMW could use via a software update if that is the case.

Then there is the weight of the CE 04. If a couple of cells were removed, it might lose a little bit of the 231kg that it weighs. I think the derated version of the CE 04 still weighs 231kg which if so, could mean it is still carrying the 8.9kWh battery and only using 6.2kWh of it. It's why I think the derating is most likely managed by software, but this is all a guess, and I could be very wrong.

 

[CE04_IRL]

Thanks for your post.
I'm not sure of the 'modus operandi' of BMWs derating for this bike. I was told in no uncertain terms its was permanent, by the dealer. You would think it was a software update/modification to bring it back to nominal power. This is where I have my gripe with BMW.
I have heard vague rumours that it can be changed, notably from continental Europe. But nothing has really come of it. The blurb states 6.2kWh and 100 km. My never derated CE-04 has never given more than 83 km max range (summertime Ireland). Lob 10km off that for the winter.
Great if it could be fixed by a software fix.

Regards B

 

[CE04_IRL]

The only vague excuse was that the power reduction was 'written in the ECU' No further information was forthcoming when I enquired. The relationship with the dealer was getting strained at this point.

 

[madbiker]

The only vague excuse was that the power reduction was 'written in the ECU' No further information was forthcoming when I enquired. The relationship with the dealer was getting strained at this point.

Hi, Any updates on this, I’m looking at one in a dealership here in the U.K. and seriously looking to buy it but it’s listed as having 30hp instead of the 42hp, they came back to me as I had expressed interest in it and asked for a 360 video of it, today a had the follow up phone call and that’s when I asked the question about it, I would have assumed it was a software restriction so it can be reset but they didn’t know, they did say it was a software restriction and he would check with their service department for more information.
I was about to post about it when I came across your post.
As it’s a Friday I’m not expecting any more info until next week and seeing as they want to sell the scooter I’m sure they will come back to me.
Cheers

 

[CE04_IRL]

Hi, Any updates on this, I’m looking at one in a dealership here in the U.K. and seriously looking to buy it but it’s listed as having 30hp instead of the 42hp, they came back to me as I had expressed interest in it and asked for a 360 video of it, today a had the follow up phone call and that’s when I asked the question about it, I would have assumed it was a software restriction so it can be reset but they didn’t know, they did say it was a software restriction and he would check with their service department for more information.
I was about to post about it when I came across your post.
As it’s a Friday I’m not expecting any more info until next week and seeing as they want to sell the scooter I’m sure they will come back to me.
Cheers

Press BMW on this and get a definitive answer. It was my impression that the dealership did not know, so it was not mentioned. Also partially my fault for not asking.
In the end, I traded it in and took a new C400 GT. It was all very disappointing and strained and somewhat stressful. And as a commentator above said, a cautionary tale.
My adventures with electric two wheels can wait for another day, if ever. I love the C400 now, it's highly unlikely I'll ever go electric now. But that's just my story.

 

[madbiker]

I may have dodged a bullet if they come back saying it can’t be done, you would have thought the cheapest and most cost effective way to restrict it would be by software.
I will update the forum one way or another as I’m sure they will come back to me.

 

[madbiker]

Well I’ve had the phone call and was informed it’s just a software update to return it to full power.
So before I go and take a look at the dealership I asked them to do the update and to show me documentation as proof, not that I don’t trust them but seeing it in black and white will remove any doubts, to me this shouldn’t be a problem if it’s just a simple update and they won’t lose anything if I walk away and they have to de-restrict it again for a learner, I’m so close to buying it.
I’m assuming there’s no way of checking the power output on the dash?

 

[madbiker]

Well I will have to pay them a refundable deposit before they will do the update.
Meanwhile I’m going to ask them to let me have the software version that showing up on the restricted bike.

Not sure if I should be making a new post on this but it’s sort of relevant to this post.
Can you access the software version from the dash, or is it only available from the OBD port, I’ve downloaded the manual and will be studying it but hopefully someone on here will know the process assuming there’s a menu.
It would be good to know the differences between the two.

 

[CE04_IRL]

The simplest way to know is that the restricted version has a range at fully charged of 70 to 80 km. The unrestricted version had the full range of approx 130 km.
I found the predicted range to be quite accurate but fairly temp dependent. Charging in my garage on a frosty morning gsve at worst 65 km. In the summer it hit 80 km. That margin becomes important in the context of the restricted state.

 

[madbiker]

The simplest way to know is that the restricted version has a range at fully charged of 70 to 80 km. The unrestricted version had the full range of approx 130 km.
I found the predicted range to be quite accurate but fairly temp dependent. Charging in my garage on a frosty morning gsve at worst 65 km. In the summer it hit 80 km. That margin becomes important in the context of the restricted state.

They’ve just emailed me with the software version on their full power version, it’s 013_014_020, so the 014_013_030 on the restricted version indicates to me that’s the difference, I’ve emailed them back asking what refundable deposit they want to carry out the software upgrade, obviously I wouldn’t be interested in buying it if it’s still restricted and doesn’t permanently have the full 42hp.

 

[wspollack]

They’ve just emailed me with the software version on their full power version, it’s 013_014_020, so the 014_013_030 on the restricted version indicates to me that’s the difference, I’ve emailed them back asking what refundable deposit they want to carry out the software upgrade, obviously I wouldn’t be interested in buying it if it’s still restricted and doesn’t permanently have the full 42hp.

I'd be very careful about verifying this, or spending non-refundable money on it, or making sure that the conditions are spelled clearly regarding the conditions of a refund, and so forth.

1) How will you tell if the bike is no longer derated? I mean, just because a software version changes, to me that's not a definitive sign that the bike is no longer derated.

I don't have a good answer, a good test, for this -- how to tell if the bike now has full power -- but neither do I have a CE-04 or plan to get one (being pretty well satisfied with my C 400 GT).

2) The page https://support.bmw-motorrad.com/s/...-of-A1-A2-classification-Cvlev?language=en_GB is from BMW UK, dated this year, states:

Can the A1 / A2 classification of my CE 04 be changed / "upgraded" afterwards?

In Germany, it is possible to change the performance class with a certification / re-registration. It is technically possible for the rest of Europe, but not planned by the authorities.

3) The Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/groups/3055680694646666/posts/3903332136548180/ seems to indicate that the change is no longer being done, although of course I don't know the particular posters. (I'm not a FB member, but you can see some of its pages with a simple Google search.)

Good luck, but I'd stay away from derated Beemers.

 

[CE04_IRL]

Tend to agree with Bill P.
For what it's worth, my advice is to get a 2025 C400 GT. Give BMW a year or two to sort out this issue, by which time the next generation of CE04 will or should be available. Take it from there.
Bren

 

[madbiker]

Thanks for everyone’s input, still waiting to hear back on what the differences are between both versions on the logbooks.
Seeing as A2 has a maximum power output of 47bhp why the need to clip it at 30bhp when i believe the maximum output on the c-e 04 is 42bhp.
I can understand them being able to limit the power with software but how do they reduce the battery capacity?

 

[madbiker]

Thanks for everyone’s input, still waiting to hear back on what the differences are between both versions on the logbooks.
Seeing as A2 has a maximum power output of 47bhp why the need to clip it at 30bhp when i believe the maximum output on the c-e 04 is 42bhp.
I can understand them being able to limit the power with software but how do they reduce the battery capacity?

Dam it, the computer said NO, they tried to update the software but the box for the update was greyed out.
So back to looking for one at a good price, this one was a dealer registered bike from December 24 with 66 miles on it, fully loaded with everything for £8000.

 

[Jojo]

Could it be a case of although it can actually be done, it is forbidden by law? Here in Australia we have learner approved bikes that are limited to 660cc and 150kW/tonne. Many of these bikes have throttle restrictors and other devices that limit power. While it is quite easy to remove these devices it is against the law as once a bike is deemed learner approved it will be classified as one forever more. I'm sure many people do it but a dealership never would risk it. Luckily the full power CE-04 (130kW/tonne) scrapes in as learner approved so I don't think the derated version is even sold here.

 

[madbiker]

Could it be a case of although it can actually be done, it is forbidden by law? Here in Australia we have learner approved bikes that are limited to 660cc and 150kW/tonne. Many of these bikes have throttle restrictors and other devices that limit power. While it is quite easy to remove these devices it is against the law as once a bike is deemed learner approved it will be classified as one forever more. I'm sure many people do it but a dealership never would risk it. Luckily the full power CE-04 (130kW/tonne) scrapes in as learner approved so I don't think the derated version is even sold here.

Well here’s the bit I can’t get my head around, our A2 license (restricted license) allows bikes with up to 47bhp (35kW), so where’s the need for a 30bhp model when the full power model only has 42bhp (30kW).
I could understand having a lesser powered CE-04 if it had a longer range but having less power and range doesn’t make any sense to me.