Made by Loncin - Any quality/reliability issues?

[tasosgds]

Hello,
I was thinking that since the C400GT is made by Loncin, is the quality on par with European BMW or with the Chinese brand?
Many mention this as a negative, but is it really if BMW quality checks it so it is a “European quality” model?

 

[Ceesie76]

I believe many Chinese companies are quite capable of manufacturing to the highest quality standards and don't necessarily need a European (or American or whatever) based company to help them with that. It probably mostly comes down to the cost limits the non-Chinese customer imposes as to what level of quality that customer gets in the end.

 

[jokerface]

Hello,
I was thinking that since the C400GT is made by Loncin, is the quality on par with European BMW or with the Chinese brand?
Many mention this as a negative, but is it really if BMW quality checks it so it is a “European quality” model?

Hi. Many Chinese cars and motorbikes are better than European ones, just look them up on youtube. This China is no longer that China. Many people are mistaken, they look down on Chinese-made machines, even though they shouldn't.

 

[tasosgds]

Hi. Many Chinese cars and motorbikes are better than European ones, just look them up on youtube. This China is no longer that China. Many people are mistaken, they look down on Chinese-made machines, even though they shouldn't.

I don’t disagree, but that goes to say that C400GT is actually a Chinese scooter?

 

[wspollack]

I don’t disagree, but that goes to say that C400GT is actually a Chinese scooter?

Well, according to the page https://www.bmwgroup-werke.com/berlin/en/unser-werk/internationale-produktion.html -- which I believe is a corporate BMW page -- it is. From that page, about two-thirds down, in the paragraph "PRODUCTION PARTNER LONCIN, CHINA":

The engines for the BMW F 800 and F 900 models are currently manufactured by Loncin. The BMW C 400 X and C 400 GT midsize scooters also roll off the production line here.

 

[wspollack]

Hello,
I was thinking that since the C400GT is made by Loncin, is the quality on par with European BMW or with the Chinese brand?
Many mention this as a negative, but is it really if BMW quality checks it so it is a “European quality” model?

Regarding reliability issues: I don't know how you would measure this, how you would determine this, regardless of where a bike is made.

Me, I had an engine failure on my '22 C 400 GT, after c. 5,000 miles. But I've read about assorted failures of many of what I think are the NON-made-in-China Beemers, too, as I hang out on a non-scooter BMW bike forum, too.

And you can read about failures of pretty much any bike, on its respective Internet forum. Hey, that's a large part of what forums are for: to report issues, and maybe see if they have happened to others, maybe someone has a fix, etc. You don't see a lot of "My bike has been working perfectly for five years and 50,000 miles now, no issues." Not a whole lot of incentive for folks to write those kind of posts.

I suppose if you had a JD Power survey for bikes, or if Consumer Reports included them in its annual surveys, you might learn something useful.

In terms of other scooters, I've owned two Burgman 650s over the years, and the bodywork seems much better designed -- how it's put together -- by BMW than by Suzuki.

What I find most annoying about the C 400 GT is not a reliability or a quality issue, but rather BMW's failure to include TPMS (and its preventing an owner's adding that, via its stupid sideways Schrader valves) and cruise control. For European and Asian markets, it's hard for me to see why someone would buy a C 400 (GT/X) instead of, say, a Zontes 350 E Maxi (see, e.g., www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdMQjd6OKHs ), which is much cheaper and has a bunch of additional features.

The reliability seems okay to me, and I love the styling, handling (absolutely superb), braking, and pep of the C 400 GT ... but it's lacking in a lot of other ways. Still, here in the USA, it's one of the better picks -- perhaps the best -- in its genre ("almost-maxi scooter," if I may invent a category name).

 

[Riding Foo]

What I find most annoying about the C 400 GT is not a reliability or a quality issue, but rather BMW's failure to include TPMS (and its preventing an owner's adding that, via its stupid sideways Schrader valves) and cruise control.

Hi Bill,
I've got a 2015 RT 1250 and it has those stupid sideways valves and TPMS. There must be another reason why TPMS is not included. Cost, perhaps?
It's also got a cruise control which I rarely use because I rarely go in a straight line very often, mostly in the mountains to the NW of Los Angeles.
I've got pics if you need them of the TPMS.
Joel

 

[tasosgds]

Regarding reliability issues: I don't know how you would measure this, how you would determine this, regardless of where a bike is made.

Me, I had an engine failure on my '22 C 400 GT, after c. 5,000 miles. But I've read about assorted failures of many of what I think are the NON-made-in-China Beemers, too, as I hang out on a non-scooter BMW bike forum, too.

And you can read about failures of pretty much any bike, on its respective Internet forum. Hey, that's a large part of what forums are for: to report issues, and maybe see if they have happened to others, maybe someone has a fix, etc. You don't see a lot of "My bike has been working perfectly for five years and 50,000 miles now, no issues." Not a whole lot of incentive for folks to write those kind of posts.

I suppose if you had a JD Power survey for bikes, or if Consumer Reports included them in its annual surveys, you might learn something useful.

In terms of other scooters, I've owned two Burgman 650s over the years, and the bodywork seems much better designed -- how it's put together -- by BMW than by Suzuki.

What I find most annoying about the C 400 GT is not a reliability or a quality issue, but rather BMW's failure to include TPMS (and its preventing an owner's adding that, via its stupid sideways Schrader valves) and cruise control. For European and Asian markets, it's hard for me to see why someone would buy a C 400 (GT/X) instead of, say, a Zontes 350 E Maxi (see, e.g., www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdMQjd6OKHs ), which is much cheaper and has a bunch of additional features.

The reliability seems okay to me, and I love the styling, handling (absolutely superb), braking, and pep of the C 400 GT ... but it's lacking in a lot of other ways. Still, here in the USA, it's one of the better picks -- perhaps the best -- in its genre ("almost-maxi scooter," if I may invent a category name).

Where do you find it lacking?

 

[wspollack]

Hi Bill,
I've got a 2015 RT 1250 and it has those stupid sideways valves and TPMS. There must be another reason why TPMS is not included. Cost, perhaps?
It's also got a cruise control which I rarely use because I rarely go in a straight line very often, mostly in the mountains to the NW of Los Angeles.
I've got pics if you need them of the TPMS.
Joel

The lack of both features is probably cost issues. Seems like a reasonable guess on our parts.

My objections to the lack of TPMS:

- I consider TPMS important enough that I would have been willing to pay for the option. Some other things are optional on the bike, at least in Europe, such as the TFT screen, and everywhere such as the luggage rack and top case. BMW certainly knows how to implement TPMS, as it's included or optional on most of their other bikes.

- Yep, in my opinion it's easier to check and add air with a sideways valve, vs. an up-and-down one. And that's why on many bikes I've had shops replace the up-and-down valves with offset, near-right-angle, ones.

But let that be an option for the owner! The problem here is that I can't mount an external TPMS sensor on the front valve stem, because it would smack into one of the front brake calipers. So not only does BMW not offer a TPMS on this bike, but they're preventing my adding one, too.

I actually have an external sensor on the rear wheel -- only one brake caliper back there, and on the other side. And on some bikes over the years I've also replaced the up-and-down valves with FOBO's T-valve, which is the ultimate in convenience: you get to add air sideways, and you don't even have to remove a sensor.

There's a guy in Thailand who has added TPMS to a C 400 GT, but he had to add internal sensors to the rims, and reprogram the TFT's firmware. All that's a little too weird for me, and it will also void the warranty -- changing the software -- as my receipts from my local BMW dealer always note. I'm STILL considering having some shop (my Beemer dealer won't do this) drill a hole -- or maybe do it myself -- in the center of the rim, the way every other moto manufacturer does it.

My objections to the lack of cruise control:

- I like twisties as much as the next rider, but I sometimes take a 1,000-mile ride to get there. (I have a daughter in NC, about two hours away from the good stuff in the Smoky Mountains, including getting my picture taken at Deals Gap.)

- With throttle-by-wire and umpteen sensors already in place, and the knowledge of how to do this from other models, it seems to me that it would've been a trivial exercise for BMW to include this as standard or an option.

- BMW calls this a Grand Tourer, and omits cruise? Do they really want to sell this bike?

But that's me.

 

[wspollack]

Where do you find it lacking?

See my post #9 above.

And in addition to the lack of TPMS and cruise control ...

- The underseat storage is relatively small and broken up. Remember, I've had Burgman 650s, and I'm familiar with Burgman 400s, and they do a much better of job in this area. Sure, the flexcase is nice, but that room vanishes once underway.

- BMW offers only one top case for the 400, and at 30L it's a little small, especially for two-up trips. I installed a Shad 59X just two days ago, and even at its smallest setting -- where I'll mostly leave it -- it's 42L.

- The right and left cubbies are pretty small, too.

- The TFT display is downright boring. Have you seen what other manufacturers -- and even BMW, on OTHER models -- have done with colors and graphics on TFTs?

- Not having RPMs on the My Vehicle display bothers me. You have everything else on that page, including other things that you can't do anything about but are nice to know, such as engine temp, voltage, etc. The RPMs are available ONLY on the Urban screen, which has nothing else, other than the speed. Oh, but you do get a picture of the scoot on the My Vehicle screen, taking up some number of potentially useful pixels! I KNOW what the scoot looks like -- I own one, and I'm on the freakin' thing! If they want to show what the bike looks like AT STARTUP and then fade it away, fine, but to keep it there all the time, when they could be showing RPMs instead?!

If all this seems mostly about storage, two things: 1) that's a big part of what makes scooters more practical for a lot of us, and; 2) it's not really mostly about storage, because don't forget about TPMS and cruise -- those two things are REALLY what irks me about the bike.

To be specific, I've added TPMS sensors to all my bikes over the last dozen years.

Regarding cruise, even my throttle-by-two-actual-throttle-cables 2012 Victory bagger had factory cruise. Before that (back in 2007), I added an MC Cruise (an Australian outfit, still in business) to my first 650 Burgman; throttle locks are just marginally okay, IMO, but real cruise is something I find so much more useful, even if only for a few trips each year.

 

[STiago]

I agree to the post above ^
it lacks a lot of tech that is available on other bmw models.

 

[TCC400GT]

I agree with Bill's comments also! But I am still loving this C400GT! It does handle very well and I do really like the heated grips and seat for here in Michigan (even in the Summer lately as we have had some cool days)! I also wish we had access to the much better selection of "maxi" scooters that they have in Europe. However I really like the looks of the BMW and I think it's the best option we have currently here in the US.

 

[mzflorida]

See my post #9 above.

And in addition to the lack of TPMS and cruise control ...

- The underseat storage is relatively small and broken up. Remember, I've had Burgman 650s, and I'm familiar with Burgman 400s, and they do a much better of job in this area. Sure, the flexcase is nice, but that room vanishes once underway.

- BMW offers only one top case for the 400, and at 30L it's a little small, especially for two-up trips. I installed a Shad 59X just two days ago, and even at its smallest setting -- where I'll mostly leave it -- it's 42L.

- The right and left cubbies are pretty small, too.

- The TFT display is downright boring. Have you seen what other manufacturers -- and even BMW, on OTHER models -- have done with colors and graphics on TFTs?

- Not having RPMs on the My Vehicle display bothers me. You have everything else on that page, including other things that you can't do anything about but are nice to know, such as engine temp, voltage, etc. The RPMs are available ONLY on the Urban screen, which has nothing else, other than the speed. Oh, but you do get a picture of the scoot on the My Vehicle screen, taking up some number of potentially useful pixels! I KNOW what the scoot looks like -- I own one, and I'm on the freakin' thing! If they want to show what the bike looks like AT STARTUP and then fade it away, fine, but to keep it there all the time, when they could be showing RPMs instead?!

If all this seems mostly about storage, two things: 1) that's a big part of what makes scooters more practical for a lot of us, and; 2) it's not really mostly about storage, because don't forget about TPMS and cruise -- those two things are REALLY what irks me about the bike.

To be specific, I've added TPMS sensors to all my bikes over the last dozen years.

Regarding cruise, even my throttle-by-two-actual-throttle-cables 2012 Victory bagger had factory cruise. Before that (back in 2007), I added an MC Cruise (an Australian outfit, still in business) to my first 650 Burgman; throttle locks are just marginally okay, IMO, but real cruise is something I find so much more useful, even if only for a few trips each year.

Your two posts are spot on Bill. Very thoughtful positions.

 

[mzflorida]

I agree with Bill's comments also! But I am still loving this C400GT! It does handle very well and I do really like the heated grips and seat for here in Michigan (even in the Summer lately as we have had some cool days)! I also wish we had access to the much better selection of "maxi" scooters that they have in Europe. However I really like the looks of the BMW and I think it's the best option we have currently here in the US.

Me too. I love this bike. I still cannot put my finger on exactly why. Maybe it just suits the point I am at in my motorcycling journey.