prospective owner concerned about reliability?

tommydog

New member
I am seriously considering buying a C400 (used or new), but am really concerned by some of the reports I have been reading about the scooters. The things that worry me the most are the reported stalling problems and the need for constant cleaning of the CVT. I have also read reports of serious engine problems on scooters with only a few thousand miles on the clock. It seems that a C400 is not a low maintenance option and I am shocked at the reported quality issues for such a new scooter.

With this in mind, I wondered if I was better to look elsewhere? On paper I do like the BMW specs and impressed with the fuel economy (big consideration). In addition, I like the look of the scooter and am looking for something under 400cc; however, reliability is absolutely paramount. I would be using the scooter for a daily commute of over a hundred miles (mixed motorway, country and city roads). I would also be using it in dusty environments, and given the need for constant CVT cleaning, I don't know if the C400 would cope with this without a lot of maintenance?

As I said, I do like the look of the BMW on paper, but is it a viable option for my circumstances with regards to the reliability issues. If you were to buy again, would you have another C400, or would you buy another scooter? If so, what?
 

Ceesie76

Active member
I know you specify "under 400 cc" but my C650 Sport has been virtually maintenance and trouble free for 6 pleasurable riding years averaging over 50 mpg. But I just bought an F800ST for my 120 mile each-way commute (mix of winding canyon roads and freeways) because I found I needed more 'oomph' (85 rather than 60 hp now) so I could not see myself stepping down to a 400.
 

rodent64

Member
The Beemer is a very nice scooter, nice looking and I almost bought one. However issues and maint seems a bit much even though I do all my own work. If BMW would have put the Piaggio BV 400 engine in it ,it would be almost perfect. I bought the BV 400. Not as pretty ,but bullet proof motor and much simpler valve adjustments and maintenance. That and along with the parts costs it was the Piaggio for me. Plus it runs like a bat outta hell !.
 

wspollack

Active member
@tommydog:

This is a tough one.

First off, regarding your comment, "I have also read reports of serious engine problems on scooters with only a few thousand miles on the clock" [emphasis mine]. I have been on this forum for about two years now, and I've only read about ONE serious engine problem -- mine -- here or anywhere else. The Internet will tend to magnify major problems, whenever they occur and with any brand.

Of course, forum members represent only some small fraction of all C 400 owners, as is the case with other motorcycle brands on their respective forums. OTOH, folks with major problems -- or, like you, with major questions -- tend to seek out such forums, to gain insight from owners willing to share, or report on, or to seek help for, problems. So I continue to think that major problems with the two C 400 variants are exceedingly rare.

In my case (https://www.bmw-scooters.com/index....brand-new-23-c-400-gt-free-part-i-of-ii.2932/), I emphasized replacement over reimbursement when dealing with corporate BMW and my local dealership. So I did want, and got, another C 400 GT. And it cost me something like $1,200, what with the electrical farkles I had to replace, closing out a credit-union loan and getting a new one, having to undergo the break-in service again, etc. So my answer to your question: yep, I would, and kind of did, buy it again.

On the stalling front, if I let my C 400 GT warm up for a minute or so when cold, no issue. I recall that there were some problems with the C 400 X of three or four years ago even when warmed up -- under very specific circumstances, such as when coming to a stop after the CVT was in coast mode down a long hill -- but BMW made some hardware and software changes to deal with that. Now, sure, if you want to take off right now after firing up a cold engine, you may get a stall. But that's true with a lot of bikes, and not a great idea, anyway; always a good idea to let the oil circulate a bit, and take it easy for the first few miles.

The bottom line, for me, is that I pretty much love the bike, even though it has a few shortcomings that, on occasion, infuriate me if I let my mind dwell on them.

The infuriations are the lack of cruise-control on a throttle-by-wire bike with lots of sensors and a "wonder wheel," and the lack of TPMS (and the unique placement of the Schrader valves, precluding adding a front-wheel external TPMS sensor).

And the disappointments include under-utilization of the nice TFT display, and the relative lack of storage under the seat (even with the flexcase). Also, there's a little less stretch-out leg room than on the (now-defunct) Burgman 650, for instance.

OTOH, I'm enthralled with the handling. This may not be important to you, in your commuting and other riding, but it is to me. That scoot has the most lean angle clearance of any bike I've owned, and that includes some standards (Beemer R850R and Royal Enfield Meteor 350), a couple of huge baggers/dressers (Valkyrie and Victory), and a couple of bigger scooters (Burgman 650s). And taking twisties at full-tilt, the scoot feels extremely planted:


On top of that, the single feels very smooth and very peppy to me. (And note that I know smooth -- that six-cylinder, six-carb, Valkyrie that I owned for seven years was as smooth as engines get.) In terms of pep, the owner's manual even states 86mph as a top speed, and I contend that it's really 89, per my GPS, on level ground, once the break-in period is over. And the 350 engine is 34HP, compared to the 20HP of my other 350 (the Meteor, which has a top speed of 72, and is a remarkably fun bike, if I feel like doing a sedate ride on a warm day).

And double discs up front for stopping, so that's nice, too, and a feature not found on a lot of scoots.

If you need to go faster than 89, then of course this isn't the bike for you. If 89 is okay, note that a friend of mine in California did a SaddleSore 1000 -- 1,000 miles in under 24 hours -- on his C 400 GT last year, and said that the bike can be run WFO "all day long."

And I think the bike looks great, by the way. And it seems to me that the aerodynamics of the styling may play a part in keeping the bike cleaner and more bug-free than other bikes I've owned.

So there's that.

Now, regarding cleaning the CVT, I'm aware of recent posts on that , but I'm personally not doing it. I'm not doing ANY maintenance, for that matter. At 76 years old, I decided (actually, two years ago, when I bought that first, '22, C 400 GT) that I've earned the right to not get down on the ground, not get oily, etc. I simply follow the maintenance schedule, but pay the dealership to do the work. There's no stipulation, as far as I'm aware, for me or them to inspect or clean the CVT in between scheduled maintenance intervals. So I'm not doing it, whether it's not a bad idea -- probably not a bad idea on ANY scooter, of ANY brand, for that matter -- or not.

And I have the three-year warranty to back me up (which I'm fond of pointing out eventually worked for me, and also that does not come with the no-longer-manufactured 650 models, i.e., those from Suzuki or BMW).

Having said all that, there are some other scoots you may want to look into. I don't know the details of the availability of scooters in Scotland, except that I'm sure that it's greater than what we have in the USA.

Here, you can go bigger with the Kymco AK 550, a bike I was very interested in for a year or so. Trouble is, I couldn't find one to even sit on, and then my wife "suggested" that I get the C 400 GT (after her being a passenger on a C 400 X for two week-long Edelweiss tours in Europe). The AK 550, with a bigger engine, might be more appropriate for all those miles you'll be putting on. There's a former Burgman 650 owner who has reported extensively on that forum, regarding his switch a year or so ago to the AK.

Similarly, you (but not us) can go bigger with the TMax, if you can spring for the price. I'm pretty sure that I would've owned a recent TMax TechMax if they were sold here, even given the premium price. Heck, I've been writing to Yamaha once or twice a year now for about five years, asking them to sell that version here. OTOH, if you're taking stock of fuel economy, then I'm guessing you won't feel like spending that kind of money on any TMax variant, so I guess that's out.

And the latest versions of those two bigger scoots include factory cruise-control. This might be a nice thing for you to have, if the motorway portions of your commutes are not clogged up all the time.

Or in the realm of the same size as the C 400, you can go with the Burgman 400. A tried-and-true model, with better storage than the C 400, and still being manufactured.

Or you can go smaller, with, say, the Yamaha XMax 300, and others, although that might be too small for you to feel comfortable at motorways speeds. But if not, you'll probably get good fuel mileage.

Or some other brands and models that I'm only vaguely familiar with, given the lack of models from all brands imported to North America (rightfully or wrongly, but "money talks, bullshit walks," as the saying goes, i.e., if we don't buy them, they won't come, or, like the TMax, they'll leave).

I think that that's all I got, relevant to your questions.
 
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When I think about it, it really bums me out that in our great USA, where we have access to more than most of the world, we don't get some of the best maxi-scooters. Honda, for example, makes some great maxi's even up to 750cc. And, of course, as was mentioned, the Yamaha offerings with TMax look super-interesting. On a positive note, maybe all this lack of availability is actually saving me money because I would most definitely be on a larger scoot than my current 400cc Scheemer (scooter/Beemer).
 

mzflorida

Active member
I am seriously considering buying a C400 (used or new), but am really concerned by some of the reports I have been reading about the scooters. The things that worry me the most are the reported stalling problems and the need for constant cleaning of the CVT. I have also read reports of serious engine problems on scooters with only a few thousand miles on the clock. It seems that a C400 is not a low maintenance option and I am shocked at the reported quality issues for such a new scooter.

With this in mind, I wondered if I was better to look elsewhere? On paper I do like the BMW specs and impressed with the fuel economy (big consideration). In addition, I like the look of the scooter and am looking for something under 400cc; however, reliability is absolutely paramount. I would be using the scooter for a daily commute of over a hundred miles (mixed motorway, country and city roads). I would also be using it in dusty environments, and given the need for constant CVT cleaning, I don't know if the C400 would cope with this without a lot of maintenance?

As I said, I do like the look of the BMW on paper, but is it a viable option for my circumstances with regards to the reliability issues. If you were to buy again, would you have another C400, or would you buy another scooter? If so, what?
Yes, it is reliable. Low mileage failures are anecdotal in my opinion. However, low mileage failures are also very impactful to the person experiencing such an event. If you look at the Facebook forum, you'll see over 6K owners contributing with only a few mentioning engine failures and stalling. The rest of us are enjoying the bikes as owners of any other brands are enjoying their bikes. Owners often modify or neglect thier bikes in ways that may contribute to failures but are left without mention in some cases.
 

mzflorida

Active member
When I think about it, it really bums me out that in our great USA, where we have access to more than most of the world, we don't get some of the best maxi-scooters. Honda, for example, makes some great maxi's even up to 750cc. And, of course, as was mentioned, the Yamaha offerings with TMax look super-interesting. On a positive note, maybe all this lack of availability is actually saving me money because I would most definitely be on a larger scoot than my current 400cc Scheemer (scooter/Beemer).
Yup. I'd also be on a Yamaha or Honda higher displacement scoot if they were offered here. Who knows? If BMW does go all electric on their urban mobility line, one or the other may sense the timing is right.
 

tommydog

New member
Here, you can go bigger with the Kymco AK 550,
Thanks for your comments, they have given me something to think about. I did look at the Kymco AK 550, but a big disadvantage for me is that the drive belt is partially exposed . I can't think of any advantage to this. Part of the reason why I look scooters is they normally have everything enclosed, which keeps the dirt out etc and provides for lower maintenance. Unlike you, I will be doing all the maintenance myself and have limited time. That's why reliability is very high for me. The bike will not be a play thing, but a serious commuting tool.

For my needs, I do feel that anything 400cc and under provides the perfect balance for my community needs. I want a bike that is not too heavy and gets good miles per gallon. Actually miles per gallon and reliability are probably the number one considerations for me. I am not too worried about speed, as I am a slow rider and have never had anything over a 400.
 

tommydog

New member
Yes, it is reliable. Low mileage failures are anecdotal in my opinion.
Out of interest how many times are you cleaning the CVT? I actually live 4 miles down a track, so the first 4 miles are off road for me. I just wonder if the dirt would affect it too much in terms of regular cleaning / maintenance needed? I went on holiday to Indonesia and I can't believe what some of the little Honda scooters were capable of offroad, as they just seemed to run and run with little maintenance. I get the impression that the BMW would very much be more hands on maintenance wise.
 

wspollack

Active member
@tommydog:

Just a side note on belts ...

On regular bikes -- and on the AK 550, which is sort of like a regular bike, in that the engine is frame-mounted (like the discontinued 650 scooters from BMW and Suzuki), i.e., not on the swinging arm -- final-drive belts are usually not fully enclosed, any more than final-drive chains are.

This is not an issue for riding on tarmac but, as you suggest, might be an issue on your "4 miles down a track." I would guess that it wouldn't be an issue if your track is all dirt, i.e., only an issue if your track is gravel. That is, belts aren't all that sensitive; it's okay if they just get dirty -- they will eventually fling it off.

I had belt final-drive on my Victory (a play bike, but, yep, I don't go off-road) for the five years and 35,000 miles of ownership. That was actually my favorite final drive, and I've also had shaft (R850R and Valkyrie), gears (Burgman 650s), and now chain (Meteor). The belt required no maintenance -- no final-drive gear oil changes, no oiling of itself, etc. -- or adjustment, and no replacement of itself or the front or rear sprockets the whole time I owned it. Okay, you have a different situation to some degree, but for me, I thought the belt was great.

You talking about hard-packed dirt, or gravel, or something else?
 

tommydog

New member
This is not an issue for riding on tarmac but, as you suggest, might be an issue on your "4 miles down a track." I would guess that it wouldn't be an issue if your track is all dirt, i.e., only an issue if your track is gravel. That is, belts aren't all that sensitive; it's okay if they just get dirty -- they will eventually fling it off.
But what advantage does not enclosing the full belt have, apart from cost? How can it expose the belt to less chance of failure? How can it be less maintenance?

To answer your question, the track does have a lot of gravel / small stones along it. Thats why I would like a fully enclosed belt. Am I right in thinking the C400 is fully enclosed? Also, does anyone know about the Burgman 400 or XMax 300?
 

Ceesie76

Active member
When I think about it, it really bums me out that in our great USA, where we have access to more than most of the world, we don't get some of the best maxi-scooters. Honda, for example, makes some great maxi's even up to 750cc. And, of course, as was mentioned, the Yamaha offerings with TMax look super-interesting. On a positive note, maybe all this lack of availability is actually saving me money because I would most definitely be on a larger scoot than my current 400cc Scheemer (scooter/Beemer).
I am sure the issue with availability of more scooter models is demand - there simply isn't enough in the US to warrant carrying some models for some manufacturers. When I was living in Europe (Geneva, Switzerland), there were swarms of scooters all around me every single hour of the day, most of course around rush hour. In Los Angeles/Southern California, I am a Lone Wolf. I was in Madrid last September: swarms upon swarms, hundreds upon hundreds of maxi-scooters. Same in Paris, London, Amsterdam, on and on. From my extensive travels in In Africa and Asia: literally (I venture to guess) millions of scooters. Just look up on YouTube, for fun: 'Hanoi Traffic'.


In the US you rarely see one anywhere. That's the problem!
 
Ceesie, I'm sure you're right about lack of demand being the issue. I have to wonder though, as fuel prices continue to rise, if that will change in the near future. Also, with the "boomers" and I'm one of those, maybe it's already starting to make more sense for the US to increase scooter availability. Off setting that, I suppose, are all the folks getting off two wheelers and going to three wheelers like the Spider.
 

mzflorida

Active member
Out of interest how many times are you cleaning the CVT? I actually live 4 miles down a track, so the first 4 miles are off road for me. I just wonder if the dirt would affect it too much in terms of regular cleaning / maintenance needed? I went on holiday to Indonesia and I can't believe what some of the little Honda scooters were capable of offroad, as they just seemed to run and run with little maintenance. I get the impression that the BMW would very much be more hands on maintenance wise.
What would make you believe that a BMW single cylinder CVT bike is less capable than a similarly designed bike from another manufacturer? They all have gaskets, most have belts, the clutches are sometimes interchangeable across brands. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, and it is more about the performance of all bikes sharing a similar configuration as the C400GT. If not, you can expect similar outcomes with the BMW as you would with bikes that are similarly situated.

The parts below are for a Honda ADV 350 and BMW C400GT. Not sure anyone can discern any meaningul differnces that would suggest one would perform better than the other. Gaskets all look the same. Tranny seals are absolutley the same.

I am not trying to tell you that a BMW is trouble free. What I can tell you is that the big brands perform about the same. BMW does have higher repair rates than ther counterparts, that is a fact. But none of them have high failure rates.

1713225366612.png 1713225432829.png 1713225527004.png1713225596927.png
 

mzflorida

Active member
Ceesie, I'm sure you're right about lack of demand being the issue. I have to wonder though, as fuel prices continue to rise, if that will change in the near future. Also, with the "boomers" and I'm one of those, maybe it's already starting to make more sense for the US to increase scooter availability. Off setting that, I suppose, are all the folks getting off two wheelers and going to three wheelers like the Spider.
I think there would need to be factorial fuel price increases for large scale two-wheel adoption to occur here in the USA. You can search for the data, there are many sources, showing there is little change in gas consumption during the time periods where gasoline prices increase. If I recall, it drops about a percentage toward the end of the price increase cycle, then fuel prices drop, and consumption returns to normal to above average rates. That pretty much says "I'm driving what I have" whatever the cost of fuel. I wish it were the case, I just don't think we are culturally there.
 

Ceesie76

Active member
Yes I think it's not so much about fuel prices as the fact that people are 'herd animals' which means that, if nobody rides motorcycles then nobody will ride motorcycles. Since I am European I just think: "Why is everyone sitting in traffic not moving, on great highways in a super-climate here in Southern California"? This morning on my 120 mile ride into the office I saw exactly 1 other motorcycle filtering in between the stalled tin cans, of which there must have been thousands. Nobody rides (well, "Just questionable guys with a death wish") so, nobody rides.
This also explains why, when there is a critical mass of people riding (London, Geneva, Paris, Amsterdam, Madrid, Rome etc etc) then many people will follow and will sustain the critical mass.
In the seventies, an experiment was in one situation they had a hippie crossing the street while the pedestrain crossing light was red. Nobody would follow, however when they would have a guy looking sharp in a business suit do the same, other people would follow. We're the hippies!
 
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mzflorida

Active member
Yes I think it's not so much about fuel prices as the fact that people are 'herd animals' which means that, if nobody rides motorcycles then nobody will ride motorcycles. Since I am European I just think: "Why is everyone sitting in traffic not moving, on great highways in a super-climate here in Southern California"? This morning on my 120 mile ride into the office I saw exactly 1 other motorcycle filtering in between the stalled tin cans, of which there must have been thousands. Nobody rides (well, "Just questionable guys with a death wish") so, nobody rides.
This also explains why, when there is a critical mass of people riding (London, Geneva, Paris, Amsterdam, Madrid, Rome etc etc) then many people will follow and will sustain the critical mass.
In the seventies, an experiment was in one situation they had a hippie crossing the street while the pedestrain crossing light was red. Nobody would follow, however when they would have a guy looking sharp in a business suit do the same, other people would follow. We're the hippies!
Exactly. Funny. I read about low motorcycle accident rates in Rome, then I went there. Though motos are moving faster than cagers, they’re still only going 20 miles an hour, tops. Lower speeds almost always translates to fewer accidents. Off topic. Sorry.
 

tommydog

New member
The parts below are for a Honda ADV 350 and BMW C400GT. Not sure anyone can discern any meaningul differnces that would suggest one would perform better than the other. Gaskets all look the same. Tranny seals are absolutley the same.
Thats interesting, because I don't see many users complaining about this problem on the Honda ADV 350 or Honda Forza 300 / 350. Honda also specify a belt change at longer service intervals than BMW.

The more I think about this, the more I am being drawn to the Honda ADV. These are my reasons
0) The engine seems to get really good reviews online and it appears to be very reliable
1) It seems more suited for light offroad stuff.
2) The under seat storage seem to have been thought out better.
3) There are so many repair tutorial videos online. I have stuggled to find much for the BMW
4) Spare parts seem to be cheaper.
5) You can pick up a Honda cheaper than the BMW

Am I missing something?
 

wspollack

Active member
Thats interesting, because I don't see many users complaining about this problem on the Honda ADV 350 or Honda Forza 300 / 350. Honda also specify a belt change at longer service intervals than BMW.

The more I think about this, the more I am being drawn to the Honda ADV. These are my reasons
0) The engine seems to get really good reviews online and it appears to be very reliable
1) It seems more suited for light offroad stuff.
2) The under seat storage seem to have been thought out better.
3) There are so many repair tutorial videos online. I have stuggled to find much for the BMW
4) Spare parts seem to be cheaper.
5) You can pick up a Honda cheaper than the BMW

Am I missing something?
Probably a good scoot, especially for your dirt and gravel portion -- maybe the X-ADV would be even better.

Here in the USA, the largest we get is the ADV160 from Honda, not the ADV350 (or the Forza 350 or the Forza 750). So you'll have to go by YouTube reviews, magazine reviews, perhaps your own test ride, and so forth, i.e., I don't think any of us in North America will be able to help you out much on that choice.

The ADV350 is about 70 lb. lighter than the C 400 GT, so that's also a plus. I assume the engine power and speed will be acceptable on the motorways.

Of course, Honda is known for reliability in general, from the Super Cub on up. And the dealerships are usually more abundant.

Good luck with your decision.
 

mzflorida

Active member
Thats interesting, because I don't see many users complaining about this problem on the Honda ADV 350 or Honda Forza 300 / 350. Honda also specify a belt change at longer service intervals than BMW.

The more I think about this, the more I am being drawn to the Honda ADV. These are my reasons
0) The engine seems to get really good reviews online and it appears to be very reliable
1) It seems more suited for light offroad stuff.
2) The under seat storage seem to have been thought out better.
3) There are so many repair tutorial videos online. I have stuggled to find much for the BMW
4) Spare parts seem to be cheaper.
5) You can pick up a Honda cheaper than the BMW

Am I missing something?
Nope. I love Hondas. I’ve owned 4 (traditional form factor bikes) and still have one that I’m riding from Florida to Toronto Canada then Florida to some western state to be named. I have zero reservations about the reliability of the brand. If I could only have one bike, and I was going to use it every day (sounds like you will)and reliability was the primary consideration, Honda would be my choice. The BMW seems to win in comfort and handling though. But the reason you see repair videos for the ADV3 is that things do break on Hondas too. Stalling, key fob not working, starting issues, stalling issues are all seemingly common problems reported by their owners. You should certainly buy the bike you are most comfortable with. Sounds like Honda works best and I’d own one if it were available here ( not that what I, or others, own should even remotely influence your decision).

If you’re a data driven owner, it is inarguable that Hondas are statistically more reliable than BMW. But you’ll find owners of both brands who have nothing but luck or nothing but problems…somewhere in the middle too. In the conditions you are talking about riding through, kind of a crap shoot with either.

The Piaggio and Vespas also have good reputations.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there is bias against BMW by many; some warranted some not.

Edit: I would say Honda is definitely one of the more economical brands to maintain (generally).
 
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